Navigating innovation, integration, and investment in logistics with Erez Agamoni

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In this episode

Erez Agmoni Co-Founder and General Partner at Interwoven Ventures, joins Host Brian Glick, CEO of Chain.io, to discuss:

• Why innovation inside large logistics organizations requires more than just tech
• The integration pitfalls startups face when selling into enterprise supply chains
• How politics, change management, and culture impact transformation
• What startups and VCs often get wrong—and how to fix it
• The rise of digital twins and why small wins beat moonshots
• Why tariff disruptions actually drive demand for supply chain technology
• What makes supply chain a career worth sticking with for decades

Erez shares insights from both sides of the table—as a global logistics operator and now as an investor guiding the next generation of supply chain startups. He brings over 20 years of global experience across airlines, logistics, 3PL, and IT. He has held leadership roles including Chief Commercial Officer, Managing Director, and Head of Regional Airfreight and Supply Chain Development in both Asia and the Americas.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Brian Glick: Welcome to Supply Chain Connections. I'm Brian Glick, founder and CEO at Chain.io. On this episode, we are gonna be speaking with Erez Agmoni. Erez is currently a venture capitalist at Interwoven Ventures. He's recently joined there after a long and distinguished career with Maersk in innovation and operations.

[00:00:23] And we're gonna spend some time really talking about practical tips for startups and large organizations. And how those two very different worlds can come together to create innovation, to create success. As always, we're gonna focus on the personal side of stories and how the interplay of politics and technology come together inside large organizations to actually get things done.

[00:00:47] So I hope you enjoy the episode. Erez, welcome to the show.

[00:00:53] Erez Agmoni: Thank you for having me, Brian. I'm excited to be here.

[00:00:56] Brian Glick: Well, let's dive right in. I always like to start with how did you get into the industry and more importantly, why did you stay?

[00:01:05] Erez Agmoni: Oh wow. That's a loaded question, but alright. That takes me way back when I started, probably,

[00:01:13] 30 years ago. First job in the industry was actually at the airline. I worked for the passenger side. They hired me to help over there, and after a year I was about to quit. I said, ah, that's not for me, really. But the bottom line was that I was ready to quit. And they said, no, but we are about to promote you.

[00:01:34] I said, I'm willing to take the promotion, but I wanna move to the cargo. I said, I'll try something else. You know, and basically they gave me the post in the cargo site, which was, I liked it. It was definitely something new, something unique. I remember they sent me to do training in New York. They sent me from Thailand to New York to do my training.

[00:01:58] And at that time I was, uh, my bachelor degree studying computer engineering. And somebody here during the training told me, if you'll be good, you might be developing a career in this industry. And I thought to myself, I don't wanna develop a career in this industry. I want to be a computer engineer. It's not that this is better than the other, but you know, it's, I'm doing something totally different.

[00:02:21] 30 years later, I'm still in the industry. The real reason I'm still here is because it's a fascinating industry. I had a computer career as well. I had an IT company which I sold and I've been doing stuff with technology all my life. But I found it a fascinating industry. There are a lot of different problems to solve.

[00:02:42] I love problems. I love to see how things are evolving from the old fashioned way to something new. It's of course an industry that without it, nothing will exist and nobody will have their goods. So of course nobody knows what it is before Covid. You say you work in supply chain, they're what?

[00:03:04] So what are you doing? I say I'm working for Maersk. At that time, I was working for Maersk. Oh, so you are captain on the ship? I said, no. So you are the driver on a truck. I said, no. It is like, what is supply chain other than these two roles? You know, people didn't even have a clue what it could be? But after Covid, of course, suddenly the spotlight came and people understand what this supply chain is.

[00:03:26] So, but this kind of kept me enjoying the roles. The different roles that I have had about it all my life.

[00:03:33] Brian Glick: It's funny, you and I have a similar journey in that I ended up in the industry because I got a job fixing computers and it was in the neighborhood I wanted to live in. And I said, I'm gonna do this for three months until I find something more interesting.

[00:03:50] 30 years later yet to find something more interesting. So, but if I find something more interesting tomorrow I'm out. So you made a transition, you know, about five, six years ago from being in that operational side of cargo and helping to get things moved to innovation and not a lot of us have the opportunity to see.

[00:04:14] Inside of a very large organization, what the word innovation means and how that works there. But can you shed a little light on why you made that transition and what that role, what that meant?

[00:04:26] Erez Agmoni: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:28] Erez Agmoni: So I think it all started when I got the head of North America warehousing and distribution role at Maersk.

[00:04:36] I was asked by the CEO at that time, Hey, there is a role here. We need somebody that's willing to change things and will you be able to take it? And I'm like. At that time I was heading a supply chain design and development, which is kind of looking at the supply chain of our customers and trying to improve that.

[00:04:57] And I said, you know what? That sounds like an interesting role where I was seeing distribution. It's definitely something that I feel is fun and, and my first week I asked the different teams, so I had multiple teams doing different things and the first team that I met with was the commercial team, and I'm like.

[00:05:14] Can you show me what we are presenting to our customers, like PowerPoints, presentations, like, because we wanted to grow ourselves, so I wanted to see what we're presenting and I was a little bit puzzled to see the first page of that presentation was a person holding cart and pushing it by hand, cart full of boxes.

[00:05:36] And down the road of the presentation, maybe two slides after that, there was a person holding a folder with a pencil, not even a pen, with a pencil trying, pretending that they're writing something when in the background there is a forklift driving kind of. And I was like. Wow. This cannot be what we are really proud of to show to our customers.

[00:05:57] You know, it was close to 2020. It was not 2020 yet. It was like three years to 2020. So it's like advanced time. You know, there is technology out there already. Why would it be what we are so proud of? And I ask back like, are we sure that this is what we wanna present? They say. Of course, nobody else can do that.

[00:06:17] It's so labor intensive and difficult to do so nobody else really can do it. And I'm like, yeah, but that's not sustainable. Those people might not want to do this job. It's not really a fun job to do. What else can we show the customers better than that? And really very fast I understood that this is an industry wide problem.

[00:06:40] It's not just at Maersk. It's really everywhere people are used to doing certain things in certain ways and very difficult for them to change. So we started with small automation during that time, kind of project of 20 something million here and there. I call it small because it was one location only. It's small.

[00:07:03] Brian Glick: Small of the scale of Maersk.

[00:07:04] Erez Agmoni: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not small money wise, of course, but we did really, we did an amazing job there. I have to say. The team did a great job there. Something that was supposed to be a return investment of about six years because we were modest in our assumptions and definitely

[00:07:20] the market condition was improving towards when we actually used it. We returned our investment in less than two years, basically. It was an amazing, that's where I started to push small other projects into that and I then suggested the company, Hey, if we see that all those things are working, why don't you allow me to build an innovation team that this is really doing it at their focus, not on a, by the way, kind of let's do it as this is the mission of this team, that they go and look at all the different things that happen in supply chain and trying to improve that.

[00:07:58] So. They gave me the mandate that started as North America and then it became a global mandate. So was basically heading globally for the innovation of Maersk at that time.

[00:08:10] Brian Glick: So I wanna dig into something there that I think is, you were kind of talking around it, but let's go right at it. The, uh, getting a budget approved for an innovation is not,

[00:08:23] When I was younger, I thought that the way you did that was you collected a number, a bunch of facts. You put those facts in a list, you handed that list to somebody, and because of the way that logic and math works, you got it approved. What's your advice for companies that want to work with large organizations about how, what do you actually have to do to get something through a large organization and get a, you know, a startup approved to work inside of a big company?

[00:08:54] Erez Agmoni: Yeah, that's a fantastic question because a lot of people don't get the politics and dynamics of large organizations and putting the numbers and showing it's all great. Good luck with that. You'll never be able to be, that's never gonna be, it's a very small element, an important element, but you still need to do so many other things.

[00:09:16] And one thing that I see multiple times with startups or companies that are trying to sell technology to corporations, and I got it again and again, it's like they misunderstand the complication of integration, and I think this is a point that everybody that is trying to work with large organizations needs to always remember.

[00:09:44] You cannot come to a large organization and tell them, don't worry, I will integrate with you in a week. It never is gonna happen, never gonna happen. People will laugh at you and won't trust that you know what you're doing. So first of all, you need to understand, even if you can integrate within a week, the large company cannot.

[00:10:02] That's normally where the problem is, they don't have the resources, the time and the interest to get those integration, those multiple teams that you need to bring on board. You know, it's the team that is your sponsor and you need to always find the sponsor. 'cause if you don't, forget about it all together.

[00:10:21] So you need to find either an operator, a sponsor, or an innovation team sponsor, one of those things. Now after you got the sponsor, you need to bring the other teams on board as well. The operator. If your innovation is your sponsor, now go get the winning of the operator 'cause you want the operators to put thumbs up and say, yes, we feel that this is gonna be working.

[00:10:43] Let's do a proof of concept. You want to start there and you want the IT to not put sticks in the wheel and tell you No, no, no, no, no. This is. We don't have the budget or time to do those things. So normally your sponsors and your other stakeholders within the organization, of course, are supposed to help you, but you don't want to be a hundred percent dependent on them.

[00:11:03] You want to develop some of those connections by yourself, so you get more stakeholders that are convinced that they wanna do that, they wanna work with you on that. So that, I think the politics and the dynamic of that is the number one important and only then it's What are you selling and how much ROI  do you have and all those types of things.

[00:11:26] Brian Glick: Yeah. So obviously we spend a lot of time at Chain thinking about innovation and integration, 'cause they're both what we do. One of the things that I've noticed when it comes to integration, it's not just the computer integration it's also the business process change and the stakeholder management.

[00:11:46] We had a project that failed very early in the life cycle of this company where we were helping a software company who was going to be foundationally changing the way that an entire global sales organization was quoting freight and what they saw it as was, here's a database and we're gonna have a database and the price is gonna be in the database and therefore everything's fine.

[00:12:11] And there's a website and a screen and we don't even need an integration. And then they went to country two. So country one was in Southeast Asia, country two was in Southern Europe. And they realized that the culture might be a little bit different in Southern Europe than it is in Southeast Asia, and they're just walking into an office in Madrid or an office in Milan and saying, you are gonna do it this way tomorrow.

[00:12:35] Doesn't exactly work. And I think that's a big thing that a lot of tech companies miss, is if you're doing something important, you're probably changing it the way an organization and people work. And that needs to be in that plan right next to the computer integration.

[00:12:50] Erez Agmoni: Absolutely. This is a crucial point and I think you definitely should not trust the organization to do it for you.

[00:13:00] Normally, the organization doesn't have the capacity nor the people to help you with change management. Sometimes you will, you might get something like this in a certain organization. That's excellent if they have that, jump on that capability and ask them to help. Otherwise, you have to plan for resources, cost, travel, probably education, all those types of things to help them with the change management.

[00:13:26] I can give you an excellent example about many times when we ran proof of concept. So we had three categories of proof of concepts in the innovation center. One was automation, autonomous. The second was digital, where we have AI, computer vision, digital twin. And the third was product innovation, where we tried to solve problems of our customers.

[00:13:47] So many of our proof of concept with automation, we just ran proof of concept and then we tried to deploy that so nobody involved beside us and the company that designed the robots, we saw that a lot of the time. You know, the first location is great, the second location may be okay. Suddenly you have another location where

[00:14:07] know why we need it and then you need to start to rethink, what did I do wrong here and didn't do before? Why is it working here? Why is it not working there? So one of the use cases that we wanted to develop was a digital twin. And I knew that if we do it internally, it'll take us seven years and nothing will come up.

[00:14:28] So we said forget about it. We're not gonna do it internally. But also if we do it externally, if we bring a startup that is trying to help us, or a company, an IT company that will start to help us with digital twin, they'll be great with the technology, but it'll be. We did it on the trucking operation, so we wanted to divide it into three phases.

[00:14:50] Phase number one, create the visibility instead of going to 15 systems to get where the trucks, where the chassis, where the container, where's the driver and what's the appointments, now bring it onto the map with aging and understand exactly. Phase two is optimization of all this, and phase three is really the “what if” scenario simulation, the real digital twin.

[00:15:12] To do something like this is a huge change management on the team, and we knew that we don't have the resources. Startups normally don't have that capability. We decided to go with a consultancy company that had the knowledge that created it for themself because they also have other types of business beyond consultancy and they have the IT capability to build stuff like this.

[00:15:37] So they helped us really in a perfect way to manage the change management organization of that. So to really meet with the people on a weekly basis and explain to them and show them and really hold hands to be sure that they are actually moving the right way. So sometimes it's worth it to do something like this to bring some help if you don't have it internally in order to make sure that really the team is understanding and buying into the solution.

[00:16:07] 'cause if you bring the best solution and nobody is using it, you failed. Right? So you need that kind of combination of good solutions and good understanding by the people.

[00:16:20] Brian Glick: So you've made a transition now into the venture side of the world, the investing side. Yes. And I know you and I had a little bit of a conversation in the prep about.

[00:16:33] You know, what's unique about coming at it with your background versus just sort of a generic financial investment model. But, um, going back to what we were just talking about for a second, one of the things that a lot of startups will hear from their investors is, oh, no, no, don't do all that services.

[00:16:53] You wanna be a pure play software company. The financials are cleaner. The, you know, first question I always got asked when we were raising our money was, you know, what's all of this services revenue? Right? And I had to explain back that there was, we used to call it good services and bad services and good service.

[00:17:12] Good services was services that was supporting us, onboarding our software and bad services was if I was gonna go, you know, do a speaking engagement, get paid for it. That's not enhancing the product, right? But that subtlety gets lost. And what are some of the other things that you are excited about being able to guide people that you think generic investors might miss?

[00:17:34] Erez Agmoni: Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks for that. I think one thing that I saw heading innovation is talking to startups. A lot of the time there is amazing knowledge about the technology, but not about the business that they're trying to solve for. So our business was supply chain. You know, sometimes it's this portion of it, sometimes it's that portion, so people always come up with nice stories.

[00:18:01] The startup especially, oh, my father had this company, and he tried to bring goods, and it failed. So I decided to do something about it. Or another one is, oh, I had a company and I saw that the service is so lame and I, great. These are great stories, but that doesn't give you the understanding of the field, the depth of knowledge that you need.

[00:18:25] So you have to get somebody that really explains to you what the problem is. Some startups choose design partners, but maybe those design partners are normally friends and not in the right size of problem to help them. So I saw often that people are not that far from solving the problem, but they're a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right.

[00:18:50] And when I reached out to them or to their VC that connected me to them and I said, Hey, let me guide them to this problem, or ask them, can I help you to go solve this problem, I'll be your customer. And trust me, if Maersk is becoming your customer, I'm sure that many others will become your customer as well.

[00:19:09] 'cause we have similar problems as others. It's not that everybody just follows, but it's, they have the same problem. And I got resistance again and again. Of course there were a few people that were open minded and they got nice business after that, but some of that resistance came because of the venture capitals behind them.

[00:19:30] Say, no, we are already going in a certain direction. We have to focus, focus, focus. That's kind of a repeated element. Do not spread out. I said, this is not spreading out. This is really focusing on the right problem, not on what you think is the problem that does not exist. And when you see that the VCs are afraid that they need to invest more, that's where you start to raise a question to yourself.

[00:19:55] Who they are serving, basically, are they really helping the startups? Are they really helping them to grow? Are they really helping their investors that want a better return on those investments? Or they're just stubborn because they don't understand as well and they think this is the problem and they already invested certain money so they don't wanna shift?

[00:20:14] So. That's what I saw, kind of that I was not happy in the industry and I worked with many venture capitals before as part of the ecosystem that we built. And the guys that I basically joined as their partner, they were very open to that type of approach. So Interwoven is the company I’m part of right now, and they were, they come

[00:20:37] from the industry of investment on their life, but they were very consultancy investors, so they're still very supportive, kind of looking into how to be on the board even as a, you know, kind of observer if you, it's not a board seat. Just to be able to help the startups to go to where they want. Now when I joined, I also saw some of those startups coming and, hey, it's so great that we have your knowledge, come and help us.

[00:21:03] So this is really, I think an element that is missing in the startups world, in, in the venture capital world, is that combination between people that invest all their life and people that run operations and large corporations coming together and guiding them. Even better to hit the goals at the end of the day.

[00:21:22] Brian Glick: So when I started my first company, I knew that Ralph Lauren needed a very special piece of customs tariff classification software, and actually this software still exists inside of Maersk today after a whole bunch of acquisitions. It's used by Maersk Customs, but they needed this very particular, doing customs for apparel and clothing is really hard and has a whole bunch of different dynamics that

[00:21:46] I kind of knew from working inside a customs broker, but when I started that company, essentially the way I did it was I just called the head of trade compliance from Ralph Lauren, who was my customer for many years, and we had a good relationship. I said, tell me what you need and I'll build it. Right, as long as you're willing to buy it.

[00:22:05] Right. And she said on the phone, she said be in my office in three weeks with the prototype. And then we built a prototype and the rest was history. But one of the things I learned though, was the product really took off when we got Ann Taylor added to the mix, who was our second kind of big apparel customer. Because it was when we had two, like the first one was so important to get a prototype built.

[00:22:29] The second one was so important to make sure that we didn't build a thing that was so specific to one giant, you know, one of the giants of fashion. But you could be so precise, right? Like they had very particular things because they did so many different product lines and had done so many acquisitions that we had like very unique things.

[00:22:52] And then as soon as we brought Ann Taylor in, who was a very different style retailer and it was kind of just one product line and it kind of a straight think, we were able to then use two pieces of input to take the prototype and turn it into a genuine product. And I think that is an area that a lot of startups I've seen, you need that kind of take a little advice from everybody, but have that one big one to drive you forward.

[00:23:18] 'cause Ann Taylor would've never signed up if we didn't have Ralph Lauren. But if we had only had Ralph Lauren in four tiny companies we'd have built a thing that was so specific to this large organization that we wouldn't have seen the pattern. And so that was a very interesting cycle to go through.

[00:23:33] Erez Agmoni: Yeah, it's, it's a must to have multiple opinions and understandings because everybody has their own slightly different problems that they need. And sometimes it could be a big difference there, but as you said, you need somebody to really take you on board and guide you and you don't get it that often.

[00:23:50] Your relationship with Ralph Lauren was probably unique in that they were willing to do that. 'cause otherwise, you know, that's normally the struggle of those young companies to get it.

[00:24:00] Brian Glick: It's funny, it was a very unique relationship, but this gets to this whole thing of industry insiders versus outsiders. And what, as an investor, where do you place your bets?

[00:24:09] Right? On somebody who has been inside of it. Or somebody who's outside. And the advantage that I had was I spent, you know, more than 10 years working inside of a customs broker and a freight forwarder and had run infrastructure and distribution and global IT for the international trade side. So I had built this personal relationship and that

[00:24:33] was the value driver. This person trusted me because over a 10 year period, she knew me when I was a programmer, right? And I had come up through the ranks and she knew that whatever I said I was going to do got delivered. Even if the team wasn't gonna get it done, I was not gonna walk in her office as the person who owned the account without the thing delivered, for 10 years.

[00:24:55] Then you get permission to do something like that. And I think that a lot of, we'll say impatient people will come into an industry and expect people to give them that level of trust instead of… it took a lot of effort to earn that, and it took a lot of beatings along the way.

[00:25:12] Erez Agmoni: I'm sure. I'm sure it did.

[00:25:13] But listen, I really like the way you phrase it, the insider outsider. Uh, and I would say here that combination…you can't be just an insider, you can't be just an outsider. You need to have that combination either in one person that understands how to look at this from the inside and take himself or herself out and look at it from the outside or somebody that, it can be two people that bring and complete each other.

[00:25:42] And I think the importance here is that sometimes if we’re too much inside the organization, you just, you are blind yourself to the way that it's been done in a certain way and you say, oh, there's no other way to do it. Right. So you need a little bit of outside sometimes to visualize, oh, it can be done differently.

[00:25:59] The way I always did it, I was always from inside the organization, but I've always looked at other organizations and other verticals and said how they do things. Can I copy paste it to this world? Because you can use so many other great examples from other worlds and just say, okay, if I have that technology in this logistics world, what would happen?

[00:26:22] Where does the imagination take you with that? You can think about those. So it's great to have inside knowledge. But you can't just look inside all the time. You have to look outside and see what else is there to bring it inside your organization. But without that inside knowledge, you probably won't make it 'cause you

[00:26:39] never know what the real problems are and you won't have the connection, as you mentioned.

[00:26:45] Brian Glick: Yeah. And one of the mistakes that I made when we started Chain, I was biased towards that insider to a degree that everyone we brought in was an insider. And it was at the point where we started hiring some people on the leadership team who had enough familiarity with the adjacent industries.

[00:27:05] So we brought in somebody who had worked in mobile, but they had worked in mobile for things like ELDs and trucking. So they were not necessarily in what we're doing, but they also weren't completely foreign. And now our leader team is about half and half of like, people who grew up inside operations and people who did not.

[00:27:24] And that interplay is much healthier than being all one way or all the other. So

[00:27:30] Erez Agmoni: yeah, I think diversity is super important. When you want to create new things, you want to have different, and diversity in all means, you know, my team, the innovation team at Maersk was close to 20 people. We had 51 or 52% female versus 49, 48 male.

[00:27:48] We had from that 20 people, 12 different nationalities. So it's like early you had similar, more than two people. We had people that come in from project management, from technology, from operation, from administration, from really all over the place and everybody comes with from inside and outside knowledge that really kind of help to the others to understand things that otherwise you, you might not get it.

[00:28:18] So I think what you said is, building a team that has outsider, insider, different knowledge, that kind of knowledge is super important.

[00:28:26] Brian Glick: So we're coming up on time here. There's a lot going on in the world, lots of things going on in the trade world and the supply chain world and the AI world and all of these things.

[00:28:36] Tell me something you are enthusiastic about, something you're excited about, that you've seen recently, or a trend.

[00:28:41] Erez Agmoni: Listen, there's a lot of robotics, a lot of AI solutions out there today that really can change the game. I think it is very difficult many times to deploy those things just because of what we spoke about before.

[00:28:57] You know, there's so many projects in companies and corporations that it's not really moving fast, but those that manage to do that, and I think one element that I am really excited about is the digital twin of things. It's really starting to. Become from an idea more into a tool. And I will again suggest to people if you really want to go there, don't try to build the whole thing at once.

[00:29:23] Divide it into small elements that each of them bring you some interest and some returns so you don't just go and go wild and hey, I'll take now three years to build and hopefully it'll work. No. Build small things, return that investment, make sure that people are understanding how to use it and move on.

[00:29:43] Those elements definitely I see and I get very excited. Stuff that I'm not excited about. I know that you didn't ask, but I want to share about this, but I'm not also worried so much from that perspective. Is the tariff war today? I know that this could be a political discussion and I'm not going that direction.

[00:30:01] I think that a lot of people believe or feel that that tariff war will create a huge problem for the supply chain and the supporters, or technology supporters. I think the opposite. It might be creating a hardship on us as consumers at the end of the day because if the price goes up, we are all gonna pay more.

[00:30:25] But if you look backwards, anytime there was some kind of a disaster or some kind of disruption for the supply chain, the beneficiary of that was supply chain companies and whoever brought technology to those companies. So if you are building technology for supply chain, definitely. Keep going. They will need you and they'll need you more than ever because every time there is a problem, somebody needs solutions and the fastest solution out there making the best year.

[00:30:55] So look back at Covid time, everybody thought it's gonna be a nightmare for everybody. It was the best year ever for everyone in the industry. Look about two years ago last year actually. Oh no, the Suez Canal is closed. The Houthis, Israel, all this craziness in the Middle East will be a disaster. It ended up as

[00:31:17] one of the best years for the supply chain in general. You know, because every time there is some disaster, they cash on it. They know how to build solutions and get something out of that. So technologies companies that support those guys, keep going and you will be in a fantastic position.

[00:31:32] Brian Glick: If everything was easy, nobody would need us.

[00:31:35] When I worked inside the customs brokers, and we were never proud that this was a statement we would make, but every time there was a new trade agreement, every time there was a new regulation, we'd go, oh, great. We're gonna make more money this year. Right? So complexity creates opportunity, and it's certainly not the thing that any freight forward or customs broker puts on their website.

[00:31:57] But it is 100% a good way to be.

[00:32:01] Erez Agmoni: Without those opportunities, things will not move.

[00:32:04] Brian Glick: You know, if everything was easy we would all ship everything parcel and that would be the end of the day, so.Um, alright, well again, thank you so much for being honest. It was great chatting with you.

[00:32:15] We'll put a link to Interwoven down in the show notes and your LinkedIn as well so that everybody knows how to get in touch. And again, thanks for being here.

[00:32:22] Erez Agmoni: Thank you very much, Brian. I enjoyed being on the show.

[00:32:30] Brian Glick: Thanks so much to Erez, for just all of that insight. Again, it's very rare that we have the opportunity to really get the view from inside of large organizations with someone who also understands what happens with the smaller organizations that work with them. We'll have links in the show notes, as I mentioned, and if you were

[00:32:50] intrigued by some of that end of the episode commentary around tariffs and complexity make sure that you don't miss the next episode where we're gonna have a very frank conversation about change management through the adversity of all of these things that are going on in the world with customs and the like

[00:33:09] with Scott Case, who was actually our first guest on the show, he is coming back many years later, so make sure to keep an eye on Chain.io LinkedIn so that you see when that's coming out, as well as obviously by subscribing to the podcast. Thank you for listening to Supply Chain Connections. I'm Brian Glick, founder CEO at Chain.io.

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